Friday, March 13, 2009

Effects of American Indian stereotypes

In several places on American Indians in Children's Literature and in my writing, I reference resolutions of the American Sociological Association and the American Psychological Association. Both associations, in their resolutions, call for the end of use of Native imagery in sports mascots. The resolutions are based on research studies that document the harm caused by this sort of imagery.

Whether its a sports mascot or a character in a children's book, there are many similarities. Here's UIUC's now-officially-discontinued "chief illiniwek":

Shown here are some characters in children's books. See the similarities?


One of the people doing the research on effect of these images is Stephanie Fryberg at the University of Arizona. She was on our campus yesterday giving a lecture wherein she presented some of her research findings.

Its quite frightening. I'm not being alarmist or dramatic. Her research is compelling. There are consequences for all children exposed to stereotypical images of American Indians.

If you'd like a copy of her most recent publication, write to me and I'll send it to you. It appeared in BASIC AND APPLIED SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY in 2008, and is titled "Of Warrior Chiefs and Indian Princesses: The Psychological Consequences of American Indian Mascots," by Stephanie Fryberg, Hazel Rose Markus, Daphna Oyserman and Joseph M. Stone.

Here's the abstract:

Four studies examined the consequences of American Indian mascots and other prevalent representations of American Indians on aspects of the self-concept for American Indian students. When exposed to Chief Wahoo, Chief Illinwek, Pocahontas, or other common American Indian images, American Indian students generated positive associations (Study 1, high school) but reported depressed state self-esteem (Study 2, high school), and community worth (Study 3, high school), and fewer achievement-related possible selves (Study 4, college). We suggest that American Indian mascots are harmful because they remind American Indians of the limited ways others see them and, in this way, constrain how they can see themselves.

In the study, they showed high school students images of Pocahontas, Chief Wahoo, posters from the American Indian College Fund that say "have you seen a real Indian," and, statements reflecting negative stereotypes of American Indians. They tested self esteem and efficacy (community worth) of Native and non-Native students.

If you'd like me to send you the article, write to me at debreese at illinois dot edu.


Wednesday, March 11, 2009

Willow (from Buffy) on Columbus Day and Thanksgiving

Willow (Buffy's friend in Buffy The Vampire Slayer) and her mother do not celebrate Columbus Day or Thanksgiving. "It's a sham" she says. Awesome! This is the opening segment of episode 8, season 4...

Let's see how this episode unfolds...

Set in California, Buffy and Willow are in college now. At a groundbreaking for a new cultural center, turns out, there's a mission beneath the site. Zander fell into it and now he's sick, feverish.

Buffy wants to cook a Thanksgiving meal, saying "that's the point of Thanksgiving. Everyone has a place to go."

Hmm... there's a government project underneath campus, too, with guys who dress in fatigues and chase "hostiles" --- hostiles are vampires.

Some green smoke comes out of the mission, slithers along to the anthro office, into a glass case, and then materializes in the form of.... AN INDIAN. No feathers, just a headband and facepaint. He wears fringed buckskin, though. Trousers and a vest. He kills the anthro who is overseeing the dig of the mission.

In the anthro office, Buffy and Willow read the coroner's report. She was missing an ear! Willow and Buffy wonder why... They see the glass case, and the note card that reads "Early 1800s Chumash knife." Courese, it is missing! That's the knife the INDIAN --- who I guess is Chumash --- used to kill the anthro.

"Chumash," Giles says, "were indigenous to the whole area" (note the past tense verb).

Giles will do some research on the Chumash to see what he can learn. He muses "something was trapped there (in the mission) and wants release."

Angel tells Giles to send Buffy to talk to Father Gabriel, whose family dates back to Mission times...

She gets there, and finds the Indian, who has killed has killed Father Gabriel.

He says "You can't stop me! I am Vengeance. I am my people's cry. I am called Hus. I am seek vengeance! "You slaughtered my people. " Buffy fights him, but he turns into a bunch of crows and gets away.

Giles says "It's an Indian spirit of some kind. Common for them to turn into animal forms."

"Native American, not Indian" says Buffy. Giles says "oh right, I'm not up on all this."

Buffy can't quite fight this guy, out of guilt for the past.

Giles tells her to get over it because "he's killed innocent people."

Still, Buffy wants to find a "non-slayee way" to kill him.

Enter Willow with a pile of books about the Chumash and "atrocities." She reads about the Chumash, tells Willow and Giles that the Chumash were "fluffy indigenous kittens until we came along" and did awful things, like "imprisonment, forced labor, herded them into Missions. The few who tried to rebel were hanged. Proof of death was an ear." Ah---so that's why the anthro is missing an ear.

Willow wants to talk about giving something back to the Indians. Give them some land, says Giles, sarcastically.

Back in the anthro offices, the Indian is taking weapons from cases. Bows and the like.

Still talking about killing him... "He's a spirit, Willow says, not a demon." There's a big argument about what to do.

Meanwhile, the Indian spreads the weapons on the ground and starts chanting: "First people who dwelled.... Hear me and ascend." The Indian is, apparently, going to raise the dead.... And there they are! More Indians!

Willow refuses to look in books to find way to kill the Indian.

Buffy says "its hard, and he's been wronged, but we have to kill him."

Spike says "You came in, killed them, and took their land. You won! Stop feeling bad about it. You had better weapons and you massacred them. End of story. You exterminated his race. What can you possibly say to make him feel better?"

Buffy talks about wanting a nice quiet civilized dinner and just when she says 'civilized' an arrow flies in the window. She says "You have casino's now!"

Arrows fly in, Giles says "we're under seige." The fight begins. Buffy realizes "these guys don't die!"

An Indian turns into a bear. Spike freaks. He's tied to a chair (Buffy did that to him), shot full of arrows. He's a vampire, though so he can't die either.

Buffy realizes that their own weapons (from that case) can kill them. All gone, now. All of them.

Buffy, Willow, the gang... They all sit at the table, eating their Thanksgiving meal and talking about the fight, how they worked together to fight the Indians.

Willow mopes that she turned into Custer in two seconds, fighting the Indians.

End of episode.

Such mixed messages, mockery mixed with sensitivity. Kind of a mess.

Tuesday, March 10, 2009

YUROK, by Barbara A. Gray-Kanatiiosh

[Editor's Note: This review may not be published elsewhere without the written permission of Marlette Grant-Jackson at Humboldt University. She is the Curriculum Resource Coordinator and Student Services Advisor at Humboldt's Indian Teacher & Educational Personnel Program.]


by Barbara A. Gray-Kanatiiosh
ABDO publishing 2007
32 pages

Not worth its weight in Dentilium.

Another easy-reference children's book series on Native American Indians that gives children misguided information in regards to a people who are still here. The subject headings: Original homelands, Society, Homes, Food, Clothing, Crafts, Family, Children, Myths, War, Important Members, Contact with Europeans, and the Tribe or Nation Today, are cookie cutter patterns for at least four sets of ten books on many known tribes.

In past tense the book tells you some information about the Yurok people, but doesn't acknowledge that we are still a living breathing culture living in our traditional territory, in northwest California. Our territory spans from the mouth of the Klamath to the confluences of the Klamath and Trinity Rivers and from Crescent City to Trinidad. Yurok members live all around the world, but all members know where their ancestral home is. Or that we still fight to this day to exercise our sovereign rights, including fishing and hunting rights. It would have been nice to see a contemporary Yurok person as an example in the Important Member section, such as Sue Masten – past tribal chair, and political proponent for the Yurok tribe or Ray Mattz who has been instrumental in keeping our ancestral fishing rights.

A conversation with the Tribe's language specialists would have guided the author to understand that there is more than one word we use to refer to ourselves Puel lik-lah which means down river people, or Oohl – which refers to Indian people, the word chosen in the book is Olekwo’l which would have been used in pre-human times and not used today. As for identifying oneself as in an introduction it is based on which ancestral village or area the person's family is from and their family names. I'm sorry to say but this book is not worth the $18.85 that is being charged and I am sorry to see that the oppression has now become internalized, for the book is being written by a Native. Even the website to find out more about Yuroks is , instead of the actual tribal page

Illustrator David Kanietakeron Fadden has given this book a look of authenticity with his detailed renderings of the culture, people and life style. Mr. Fadden did take the time to make his artwork reflect our patterns, homes, and regalia, but not necessarily the diversity of color variation among our people within his drawings.

The photo’s in the book could have used some extra information.
  • On the cover a current photo of a young Yurok girl in ceremonial regalia is used without reference to who she is, just the name of the photographer and the site the photo was bought from.

  • On page 29 a cropped Associated Press photo of a 2004 ceremony for the Return of Indian Island to the Wiyot Tribe shows a close up of Ty Allen in full female regalia and the caption reads “Today, the Yurok continue to observe ceremonies. Ty Allen is a Yurok-Karok Indian. In 2004, he participated in a ceremony for the return of sacred land to the Wiyot Tribe.”

  • On page 30 there is a picture of a non-Yurok man in traditional plains regalia and the caption reads “This Yurok man rides a horse during a festival. He is dressed in traditional ceremonial clothing.” The regalia and man are NOT Yurok, this promotes the Hollywood stereotypes.

There are so many things wrong with the book that if I were to address each of them here I would re-write the book for the author. Hmmm maybe that's what we should do is write our own book for our own children??

to' kee kem ney-wu-chek.
(I will see you later)
Marlette Grant-Jackson

Saturday, March 07, 2009

Richard Scarry's Indians

A few years ago, I read about stereotypical Indians in Richard Scarry's books, specifically, the ones in Best Word Book Ever. I started looking for them in his books but couldn't find any. The books I was looking through were newer editions from the local library. The images I was looking for, I realized, were in the older versions. The newer ones, in other words, have been revised.

Stereotypical images of Indians? Gone! Hurray!

Here's what they looked like, before they were revised. I found some cowboy and Indian chicks in his Please and Thank You book:

This morning, a colleague (thanks, Rebecca!) sent me an email, pointing me to a flickr page that has side/by/side comparisons of images that changed from earlier to more recent editions. Do take a look at all of them, but study the ones of Indians, and read the comments.

Boats and Ships - Rabbit in headdress paddling canoe vs Rabbit in canoe

I is for Ice Cream - It's the page for the letter I, and it had a mouse wearing a headdress.

UPDATE, MARCH 10, 3:10 Central Time

In a comment just submitted, "French Connection" asks why I have "not recommended" in the label for this book. Thank you for pointing that out. To clarify what I mean, if you've got an older version of the book that has all those stereotypes, including the Indian ones, I encourage you to remove that book and replace it with one of the newer ones.

And, French Connection, you don't think your children developed "stilted" ideas about American Indians by reading this book...   Can you ask them to draw an Indian, see what they draw, ask them why they did so, and report back to us? If they don't draw feathers on their Indians, can you ask them why they did not? I look forward to hearing from you! Thanks!

Update, March 11, 2009

Thanks to Heidi, I've got images from Scarry's Find Your ABC's uploaded to Images of Indians:

Wednesday, March 04, 2009

This just in: LITTLE HOUSE ON THE PRAIRIE (in Arizona)

A colleague just sent me an article from an Arizona newspaper. (Thanks, Tricia!) The article is titled "Each day, Tempe teacher turns to 'Little House' books to calm kids."

The first paragraph reads:

"Every day after lunch for 32 years, second-grade teacher Becky Bernard has read a chapter aloud from the "Little House" series by Laura Ingalls Wilder, transporting her students to a simpler time."

The reading apparently gets them calmed down after playing outside at recess. She adopts different voices as she reads to the children, using a "snotty" voice for Nellie and a sweet one for Ma. I wonder how she reads "The only good Indian is a dead Indian" (the phrase appears in the book four times)?

I wonder how many Native kids she's read to in those 32 years? She is in Arizona...

How many kids, in these 32 years, heard her say "The only good Indian is a dead Indian."

I wonder how the Native kids felt hearing that, and, I wonder what effect it had on the non-Native kids?

She is quoted as saying that there are many wonderful books available now. For the well-being of all the children in her classes, she really should set aside LITTLE HOUSE and read them something else.

"Indian Day"

I'm at the Beinecke Rare Book Library at Yale, reading the American Indian Magazine, Vol. IV, No. 2, April-June, 1916, I came across an article about Indian Day. It is on page 189. The magazine was published by the Society of American Indians, which was formed by influential Native people in 1911.

"The First Indian Day"

May 13, American Indian Day. For the first time the race which roamed the western continent before the white man set foot on its shores is being honored with a day which bears that race's name. The event gives occasion for comment as tardy national recognition of a people who have to a large extent proved their worth. But how well and how comprehensively he proved it is a matter about which a great many persons still need enlightenment.

There is yet a widespread tendency to think of the American Indian as he used to be, rather than as he now is. Where is the small boy who does not picture the Indian as a savage in war paint and feathers, ready to sally forth with tomahawk and spear to avenge himself upon his foes? Where is the small girl who does not avoid reading the Indian stories which so delight her brother, and does not feel sorry for other little girls who live on prairies where they are liable to an unexpected visit from the Indians almost any hour of the day or night? Where is the father who does not enjoy getting an Indian costume for his little boy and even take pleasure in helping him put up a wigwam in the back yard? And where is the mother who does not clap her hands over her ears when that same small son and his pals chase one another round the house, "yelling like Indians"?

In the evening perhaps the family go to the nearest motion picture house. The most exciting film is a story of hairbreadth escapes from the Indians. There is usually nothing to indicate when the events are supposed to have taken place, but the impression gained is that they are comparatively recent. The children go home and dream the story over again that night to repeat its details next day at school or elsewhere.

Next week the circus comes to town. Flaring posters show in advance the "Wild West" show which is to be such a prominent part of the program, and describe in graphic terms the side show in which several Indian families are to be on exhibition. Emphasis is laid on the war dance with which those who pay ten cents admission will be regaled.

In the summer there come those happy days when the family go on a picnic to some near-by resort. Among the attractions along the main boulevard there is probably an Indian shop. Here may be purchased little birchbark canoes, moccasins, bows and arrows, and beads of many colors. If the shop is somewhat pretentious is may even offer for sale Navajo blankets and specimens of basketry and pottery. Perhaps these were made by American Indians, but more likely they were not.

Written almost 100 years ago, it could have been written yesterday...

The day to honor Native peoples? That'd be "American Indian Day" celebrated the day after Thanksgiving.

The small boy of today, if asked to draw an Indian, would certainly draw one in paint and feathers.

The small girl takes great delight in reading Little House on the Prairie.

The father getting an Indian costume and wigwam for his son? Hmm... Boy Scouts, maybe? Order of the Arrow?

And the mother who asks her small son and his pals to stop "yelling like Indians"? If you search Google blogs with "wild Indians" you'll find Todd, writing on March 1st, 2009 "...I would not tolerate them acting like a couple of wild Indians..." and Heather, on March 2nd, "I told the boys to settle down and quit acting like wild Indians..." and Raj, on March 3rd, "...Newton and Pye, running around the house like a pair of wild Indians."

The movies? How about Mel Gibson's Apocalypto...

Wild West shows? Not on tour or on stage that I know of in the U.S., but visit Disney Village in Paris and you can see that show this evening, at 6:30 or 9:30! If you want a preview, there's one on Youtube.

As for birchbark canoes, moccasins, bows and arrows, and beads and the like, your local toy store will have what you need...

Clearly, we haven't made much progress in the last 100 years. What are you doing to change that?

Sunday, March 01, 2009

"Rubbed the wrong way"

In an interview she gave to Vermont Public Radio, Beth Kanell was asked about criticism of her book, Darkness Under the Water. She characterized the people who are critical of her inaccurate, melodramatic, sensationalized presentation of the Vermont Eugenics Project and its effects on the Abenaki people of Vermont as being "rubbed the wrong way" by what she did.

We are, in fact, talking about a genocidal program that she used as a backdrop for a murder mystery. We object to what she did because her melodrama has the effect of negating the truth of what actually happened.

Characterizing us as being "rubbed the wrong way" is another indicator that she lacks the depth and insight to understand that history, Native peoples, and our voices and work. She says she's bringing attention to this history, but she's only hurting the people she apparently wants to help.

We don't need her kind of help.

With this book she adds to the body of misinformation about who American Indians are---the sort of misinformation my students have to unlearn. With this book, she miseducates, and so do teachers who use the book in their classrooms.

Taxpayers reading this post.... some of your tax dollars are going towards undoing the sorts of things students "learn" in school.

Teachers reading this post... when your students take college classes in American Indian Studies, they feel betrayed by what you gave them, and they put what they learned from you in that "lies my teacher told me" framework laid out by James Loewen.

Those who listen to Vermont Public Radio... Ask the station to invite Doris Seale, or Judy Dow, or the author of the book Kanell cites as her primary source of information, Nancy Gallagher, to be interviewed on the station.

NOT bringing their perspective to the program is a lot like repeating what was done with the Eugenics Project itself. Ignoring and silencing the voices of Native people.

[Note: This book has been discussed here several times. Scroll down to the very bottom of this page and see the set of links there.]

Friday, February 27, 2009

Not Recommended: "The Ransom of Red Chief" by O. Henry

Note from Debbie on Dec 17, 2020: A reader wrote to let us know that "The Ransom of Red Chief" also includes the N word and that I did not note it in my review back in 2007. I am grateful to AICL readers who write to tell me when I miss something. Thank you for taking time to let me know. 


One of the questions I've received a few times is about O. Henry's short story, The Ransom of Red Chief. (Update on July 17, 2019: The story was first published in 1907 in The Saturday Evening Post. The illustration below is from that issue.)

Illustration from The Saturday Evening Post, July 6, 1907

In the story a ten year old boy named Johnny is kidnapped. His kidnappers think his father will pay $2000 to get him back. Turns out, though, that the boy is a handful. Of course, his dad knows this, and everyone else in town does, too. He's such a troublemaker that the neighbors are glad he's gone. His dad, knowing the kidnappers are discovering they've got more than they bargained for, says he'll take the boy back if the kidnappers will pay him to do so. The kidnappers, instead of gaining $2000, lose $250.

The story has "Red Chief" in the title because that's what Johnny calls himself once settled in the cave where the kidnappers hole up. He's put feathers in his hair, holds a stick and calls out to one of the kidnappers:
"'Ha! cursed paleface, do you dare to enter the camp of Red Chief, the terror of the plains?'"
Johnny is playing Indian. He utters war whoops, and tries to scalp one of his captors. He's having a great time and doesn't want to go home.

I've been looking around the internet this morning to see how the story is used. I've found it used to discuss acquisitions strategies in business journals. I've also found it being used in a study of anxiety in youths. In that study, the participants are asked to read it aloud. No further details are included as to why the researchers chose that book over something else.

Mostly, though, it is used in high schools to teach about irony, and that crime doesn't pay. Looking over the lesson plans, I find things like "Red Chief is a holy terror at the beginning of the story, and he is still a terror at the end."

This reminds me of that phrase "stop running around like a bunch of wild Indians" that some parents say when their kids are, from the parents viewpoint, out of control.

If you recall reading The Ransom of Red Chief in school, please share with us the way it was used in your school. If you're a teacher using it, or if you know of it being used somewhere, I'd like to hear about that, too.

Has anyone seen it used to teach about stereotypes?

What the story does is affirm stereotypes of American Indians as feathered creatures, wild, out of control, and terrorizing whites ("paleface", to use the word Johnny used). That he plays Indian adds another dimension to the problems with the depictions of Indians. Feathers give him further license to act out.

That, of course, isn't who we are as Native people. Not now, and not in the past either. Conflicts of the past that portray Native people as savage fail to place that past in context. Native people who fought white soldiers and settlers did so to protect their families, homes, and homelands.

If you're a teacher who uses this story, consider the lessons you teach if you do not address the stereotyping in the story. Consider its effects on all the children in your classroom. Are any of them Native? Do they become the butt of jokes in the classroom? Are they teased? Does anyone call them "Red Chief"?

Thursday, February 26, 2009

Books by Walter D. Edmonds

Two nights ago I gave a lecture at Westfield State College. Among the books I discussed is The Matchlock Gun, by Walter D. Edmonds. Doris Seale's review of the book is at the Oyate site. I urge you to click on over there to read it. She describes the book, and notes, too, that it gained new life when it was chosen for the "We the People" bookshelf project sponsored by the National Endowment for the Humanities/American Library Association.

I'm thinking about the book today because last night I watched a film with my daughter (a sophomore in college). She's taking a film class. Screenings for this week include Drums Along the Mohawk. (I'm in New Haven, doing research in the Bienecke, and spending time with Liz, too.) As we drove to my hotel last night, she asked if I wanted to watch a film with her. She told me the title and started reading the accompanying info on the movie box. It reads "Based on the best-selling novel by Walter D. Edmonds..."

So I did spend the late evening last night watching Drums Along the Mohawk. It's came out in 1939. Very early in the film, Peter Fonda takes his bride, Lana, to his homestead. It's a stormy night, there's a lot of flies, and she's pretty unhappy. They go inside his cabin, he lights a fire, and then leaves to tend to the horse and wagon outside. While he's gone, an Indian comes into the cabin.

Lana turns away from the fireplace, sees, him, and starts screaming and races to the farthest corner. The Indian has been walking toward her, holding his gun, a blank expression on his face. Hubby comes in and tries to shake some sense into her, eventually slapping her, which stops her hysterics. He tells her that the Indian, "Blue Back" is helpful, friendly, a Christian. Blue Back calls out "Hallelujah" more than once during the film. Helpful and friendly, he warns the colonists when Indians are "on the warpath."

Doing some research on the book, I see it on a lot of book lists, especially for accelerated readers. I wonder how the book is used? With older children, books with biased presentations of Native people can be used to teach about perspective, but I wonder if its being used that way...

Wednesday, February 25, 2009

My visit to Westfield State College, MA

I spent yesterday at Westfield State College in Westfield, Massachusetts. I gave a lecture, followed by an hour or so of questions. I didn't get to answer all the questions (sorry!), and, there may be others that weren't asked, or, that came to mind later, or this morning.

If you have a comment or question, please send me an email to debreese at illinois dot edu. (I trust you know how to turn that spelled-out email address into an actual one.) Or, use the comment option below... Click on comment, a dialog box will open, type your comment/question, then the wavy letters that prove you're a person not a computer that's sending spam, and, hit submit.

I do appreciate feedback. If you disagree or object to any part of my presentation, please do share, that, too. Your feedback helps me revisit my thinking on the subject of American Indians and children's literature.


Monday, February 23, 2009

"American Indians" in Google, some data

Passing along some data for your perusal...

I entered American Indians into Google's search window. Google automatically displays a list of popular searches that begin that way. A different set of terms appears if you stop at American Indian (singular), and you can do this with any phrase of your choice. The phrase is followed by the number of searches. Here's what came up. I'm reordering the info by number of hits:

American Indians food = 43,900,000
American Indians history = 30,900,000
American Indians names = 15,700,000
American Indians for kids = 6,570,000
American Indians today = 4,680,000
American Indians pictures = 3,960,000
American Indians culture = 3,880,000
American Indians tribes = 2,860,000
American Indians and alcohol = 2,430,000

Sunday, February 22, 2009

Cynthia Leitich Smith presentation on Second Life

For those of you who know how to navigate Second Life, Cynthia Leitich Smith will be there on Tuesday, Feb 24th, at 3:00 CST. She'll talk about Tantalize and Eternal. The graphic sneak-peek's Cynthia has on her site are so cool!! (I copied one here.) I created a Second Life profile last year, but couldn't grasp the skills necessary to figure out how to move around. Click on over to her site for more details.

For those of you in the area of Westfield College in Massachusetts, I'll be giving a public lecture there on Tuesday evening in Scanlon Banquet Hall. There's no charge, so please do come if you can! I'll be there at the invitation of Vanessa Diana, Associate Professor of English at Westfield State.

And a heart congratulations to Cynthia... Eternal is in its 3rd printing.

Saturday, February 21, 2009

A big thank you

I'm in Sarasota, Florida for a one-day conference at USF, Sarasota-Manatee. The theme of the conference was "Representations of Diversity." I gave a lecture about American Indians in children's literature at the invitation of Professor Thomas Crisp. I met him last summer at a children's lit conference in Normal, Illinois. He's at USF, Sarasota-Manatee, on the faculty. In his opening remarks, Tom spoke about the false perception that the election of Barack Obama means we've left racism behind. He's an eloquent speaker, and USF and its students are fortunate to have him on the faculty.

As part of the conference, books were sold---books recommended by myself and David Rice, the other keynote speaker. When I went by the book desk, I was pleased as could be to learn that all the copies of Richard Van Camp's What's the Most Beautiful Thing You Know about Horses sold out right away.

Tom introduced me to two women who he went to grad school with: Suzanne Knezek who is at the University of Michigan-Flint, and Jaqueline LaRose, Eastern Michigan University. I spent a lot of time with all three of them. Invigorating conversation, many laughs, thoughtful reflections on children and books. It's been a terrific two days, and this is a public thank you to Tom, Suzy, and Jackie.