tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post7641364744474831417..comments2024-03-27T14:08:51.191-05:00Comments on American Indians in Children's Literature (AICL): What Neil Gaiman said...Debbie Reesehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14972409006633565859noreply@blogger.comBlogger60125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-15738726132035786462010-10-29T09:19:19.615-05:002010-10-29T09:19:19.615-05:00You are very clear that Mr. Gaimen is wrong in his...You are very clear that Mr. Gaimen is wrong in his comment that there were no European-style graveyards on American soil, with internments spanning more than 250 years, and with a notable Native American population. I personally have no idea whether or not that's true, though like other commenters I would have guessed that he was correct. <br /><br />As you apparently know otherwise, and have stated that you intended this to be a teachable moment, perhaps you could teach us something about it? Some history on Native Americans being interned in European-style graveyards during the 1700s and earlier would be more informative than an opinion piece. Pointers on where interested visitors should go to find such graveyards or explore this part of history. Showing people how they are wrong is much more effective than just telling them that they are wrong.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-84184458305770762382010-10-08T07:22:09.535-05:002010-10-08T07:22:09.535-05:00Following on from what Elusis says, well done to N...Following on from what Elusis says, well done to Neil Gaiman for (finally) apologising properly for his remarks. Better late than never, and good for him for being big enough to own up long after most people have forgotten.swisslethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16708248700851998044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-14748408213541793252010-10-08T00:10:44.325-05:002010-10-08T00:10:44.325-05:00I was very glad to see today that Neil has publicl...I was very glad to see today that Neil has publicly apologized on his blog, and acknowledged that your points were quite correct. Its timing seems a bit random, other than that it was perhaps triggered by a Chinese reader asking him about an offensive bit in the Graveyard Book that turns out to have been created by the translation, but I thought it was good that he said you were right in criticizing him.<br /><br />http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2010/10/big-blog-on-train.htmlElusishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05381645480092082777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-12071725766829686872010-04-23T19:15:31.614-05:002010-04-23T19:15:31.614-05:00A friend of mine pointed me to your post, and I th...A friend of mine pointed me to your post, and I think I see the disconnect: Gaiman, as a white Brit, is even more clueless than a white American would be of the politics of the word "Indian" to describe Native American people.<br /><br />Furthermore, he's probably unconsciously quoting a Monty Python sketch (you know Monty Python? Countless Brits quote their sketches as a substitute for wit) in which the electricity board man brings a complimentary gift to the house - a "free dead Indian, as advertised".<br /><br />So there's Neil, thinking he's ever so amusing to have dropped a Monty Python reference in there... And there's everyone else, who winces at the racefail of it. (Someone please tell Gaiman the world has moved on since 1970, which is when that sketch was first broadcast?)<br /><br />I applaud your restraint on blogging this issue. Thank you.ThreeOrangeshttp://threeoranges.insanejournal.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-12042093233872147312010-04-19T11:38:44.400-05:002010-04-19T11:38:44.400-05:00I was born in old Europe. I know all about church ...I was born in old Europe. I know all about church graveyards where there are gravestones so old that the information that used to be carved on them is worn down to nubs and it's impossible to read or decipher any more - and you will never know again who lies in that grave. Such graves tend to RATHER OLDER than any in the "New World", by definition, because European-style burials which the white folks brought over the water with them are by definition MUCH younger than the graves left behind in Europe. And before that, in the country that would become America, for all the PHSYCICAL markers that were left behind (in the sensibilities of the colonist folk and in their knowledge and understanding) those colonists would have no idea, unless directly involved in a massacre themselves, just how many Indians there were or had been before they got there and how and where their dead were disposed of. When Gaiman said "before that there was nobody at all" he meant that there were few bodies buried in "proper" graves with "proper" memorials and gravestones, before the white settlers arrived and brought that idea with them. In such graves, three or four hundred years ago in America, Gaiman was right - there was pretty much "nobody at all".<br /><br />There are far too many reasons out there to take offence at idiots who really have an agenda to push. Please, please, let's stop trying to scratch out something offensive at EVERYTHING anybody utters, even when there was no real reason for it at all once you unpack a remark or put it into its context...Alma Alexandernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-47651551196460057622010-04-19T11:01:31.307-05:002010-04-19T11:01:31.307-05:00Hi Debbie. I'm glad you plan to read The Grav...Hi Debbie. I'm glad you plan to read The Graveyard Book and/or other Gaiman books because you will be reassured that Gaiman is promoting diversity and faith and imagination and magic and community as well as good will toward all people and cultures.<br /><br />With specific reference to teaching children about Native American traditions: I have been writing some lesson plans for middle school students based on The Graveyard Book. <br /><br />- One lesson ties a figure from Gaiman's book to the Sisiutl: "In traditional stories and art of the Kwakiutl Indians of the Pacific Northwest, the powerful Sisiutl is usually shown as having three heads: two snake heads and a human-like head in the middle."<br /><br />- Another lesson about themes ties a statement by a Gaiman character about consecrated ground to Native American beliefs. (The character says, "There are those who believe that all land is sacred. That it is sacred before we come to it, and sacred after.")<br /><br />- A lesson about mood will discuss Gaiman's use of colors as symbols as compared to Plains Indians use of colors and the four directions.<br /><br />So, the good news is, that Gaiman's writing provides great opportunities for making cross-cultural connections, and for dispelling the stereotypes we all abhor. The zillions of words of thoughtful good will in Neil Gaiman's writing will quickly outweigh his clumsy comment in that interview.Sara H.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-28531069241325999632010-04-19T09:59:35.592-05:002010-04-19T09:59:35.592-05:00Thank you for another interesting post, Debbie. I&...Thank you for another interesting post, Debbie. I'm sad to see the vicious backlash from Mr Gaiman's fans. I hope some of them are capable of having second thoughts, even if they don't have the decency to come back and apologise. I've certainly learned a lot of worthwhile ideas about history and literature from your blog. Keep up your good work!nonnymousenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-34200183491528871472010-04-19T09:56:52.939-05:002010-04-19T09:56:52.939-05:00Debbie, I think you have good intentions, but fear...Debbie, I think you have good intentions, but fear all this kind of nitpicking does is teach others to put up fences and cause a continuation of name calling between races.<br /><br />Point in case? <br />"Evidence of my point about American/English ignorance." Dissected, as you did Neil's sentence, shows how you have seemed to classify the whole of the American/English peoples as nothing but ignorant.<br /><br />If you try hard enough one can take any conversation and find SOMETHING racist within in SOME way. Neil's was such a small comment. Was it worded poorly? Perhaps. As was yours.<br /><br />I won't defend whether or not Neil has prejudices. I do not personally know the man. But in addressing his ONE sentence, I do believe he was simply trying to illustrate that cemeteries in America do not have the same feel as ones in Europe. Personally I would agree. I've visited both styles of grave sites, and anyone that has, understands the difference as well as the context in which he was making this statement. U.S. graveyards simply do not have the same atmosphere as the ones in Europe.<br /><br />It's sad to see you can use a single miss-worded sentence to stir a battle between persons that held no ill will toward one another.<br /><br />To you all, I ask to please remember, where as it is important to teach tolerance and understanding to our children, it is just as equally important to teach FORGIVENESS and ACCEPTANCE. Or this war will never end.<br /><br />And remember, we writers are not perfect. We are just human. Race and Creed aside. We can phrase a sentence wrong just as anyone else.Liz Pennies.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14194943862816782560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-88217140959340688552010-04-19T08:50:03.892-05:002010-04-19T08:50:03.892-05:00In context, I'm rather certain that there woul...In context, I'm rather certain that there wouldn't have been terribly many Indians buried in European style graveyards before European settlement...so "a few" is probably an accurate representation of the number of Indians in European-style graveyards over 250 years ago. Not having a particularly thorough understanding of American history (since I come from a country with its own systematically institutionalised genocide to concern itself with) I could be wrong.<br /><br />But whatevs, it's the internet. Everyone's wrong some time...just that on the internet there's more people with nothing better to do than call you out on it.<br /><br />And when it comes to representing american-indians...the whole quote boils down to the fact that he set his book in an entirely different country, thus avoiding representing them at all (a fiendish plot, no doubt, to rob them of just representation!). I suppose sometimes you just have to cope with the fact that you're not relevant to the plot.<br /><br />Or perhaps he should have gone out of his way to represent the original inhabitants of his adopted country for no other reason than to avoid an inflammatory blog post several years after publication...since he'd be safe, as you'd never have read the book anyway.NewOZlibrariannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-63509413585820125472010-04-19T08:17:17.615-05:002010-04-19T08:17:17.615-05:00He panicked and misspoke without having days to an...He panicked and misspoke without having days to analyze the historical implications of a couple dozen words. Not that big of a deal.<br /><br />~Steve. <br />Sent from my iPhone.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-64063120190281821842010-04-19T08:00:42.915-05:002010-04-19T08:00:42.915-05:00Debbie,
I've been a long-time lurker on your ...Debbie,<br /><br />I've been a long-time lurker on your blog. As one of the other kind of Indians (you know, the subcontinent, not first nations), cross-racial solidarity is important to me, and I've learned so much from reading you. <br /><br />I'm sadly not surprised by the backlash of defensive fangirls and fanboys here. I love Gaiman's work and own just about all of his books, but damn. The initial comment betrayed an ignorance of (or possibly apathy towards) Indian history. The so-called apology was shameful though. I don't understand why people can't just admit that they don't know or didn't think about Indians, instead of trying to justify their ignorance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-87044498453663424712010-04-19T03:30:54.385-05:002010-04-19T03:30:54.385-05:00Wow... There were no comments when I clicked on th...Wow... There were no comments when I clicked on this before. Do the Gaiman fans realize how ignorant they're sounding? For one thing, Gaiman has already clarified what he meant and Debbie has addressed that. And for another, she didn't use the word racist/racism once in her post. <br /><br />And to Angel of Wrath would claimed that Debbie should be doing better things with her time, considering that on average less than 50% of Native Americans even graduate from high school and that one of the reasons behind it may very well be the way that Natives are represented in literature, movies, and mainstream media I think her blog serves a very important purpose.Daniellenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-52275298483572048552010-04-19T01:17:29.380-05:002010-04-19T01:17:29.380-05:00I'm a huge Neil Gaiman fan, but unlike most fa...I'm a huge Neil Gaiman fan, but unlike most fans, I can admit that he stuck his foot in his mouth and said something very insensitive. His half-apology doesn't cut it. He's not infallible, he's not perfect. What he said was thoughtless and he deserved a kick up the bum for it. <br /><br />Neil's human, don't put him on a pedestal and worship him like a faultless god please. When he stuffs up, he should apologise for it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-30640618646396257322010-04-19T01:16:26.963-05:002010-04-19T01:16:26.963-05:00I found your blog through Neil Gaiman's twitte...I found your blog through Neil Gaiman's twitter. <br /><br />I've been wondering about the appropriate use of characters from indigenous cultures in my own fiction, and your posts have given me a lot to think about. Thanks for providing this resource.M Alihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09597236823015753901noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-88027660474533016602010-04-19T00:49:34.012-05:002010-04-19T00:49:34.012-05:00The quote and explanation don't even vibe. It&...The quote and explanation don't even vibe. It's not like europeans tripped off the boat and threw a couple of indians under some gravestones. Wouldn't the very first european style graveyards in america be filled with europeans? So you go back however many years and get the very first couple of europeans that died in america, not indians. There was no reason for "a few dead indians" to even leave his mouth if his explanation is what he was really trying to say with that quote. There is no way on earth that the first european style graveyard in america would be nothing but "a few dead indians." Look, if it makes y'all feel better to rationalize this away then do you but don't go around trying to tell someone they're overemotional and overreacting when they recognize fuckery. Which is what that quote is. He said something ignorant and now he doesn't want to own it. We can't be perfect at all times so instead of trying sidestep it with a weak WEAK explanation how about just apologizing for it and moving on.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16496249414591637617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-88731120891163630462010-04-19T00:46:53.510-05:002010-04-19T00:46:53.510-05:00Yeah. You know, I can't find anything not prob...Yeah. You know, I can't find anything <em>not problematic</em> about his comment. <br /><br />But you know Debbie was just uber sensitive because she was OMG "dissecting problematic things about Native American representation in media! Like she does in every other part of her blog!"<br /><br />But you know how "graveyard" just means "European Graveyard," he didn't mean anything bad so his intend is all that matters, why is she being so emotional, she could just have focused on REAL racism, etc., etc.<br /><br />So yeah: http://derailingfordummies.com/ <-- derailing for dummies. Some people need it.Noirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07250197566463261457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-28887652490406202932010-04-19T00:28:14.932-05:002010-04-19T00:28:14.932-05:00If it helps at all (and it probably doesn't) I...If it helps at all (and it probably doesn't) I did think, as soon as I've read the comment by Neil that he'll leave to eat his words. I could tell he was just making an off the cuff remark on the spot - one he probably wouldn't have made were he less jet lagged and lacking in sleep generally speaking, but, I also did think that he was probably answering a millionth question about the book and it was getting very difficult to be original and not flippant in one's answer. Not an excuse for this kind of blunder (and I say that only because I happen to care about the Native American history - most people probably and sadly don't), and shame you had to experience the backlash of an angry fan mob. <br /><br />But still. I found your website via all this drama, and I'm very glad for it.Precision Gracehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06909385698150096315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-80845195302587697792010-04-18T23:55:16.776-05:002010-04-18T23:55:16.776-05:00The number of anonymous folks who are hopping out ...The number of anonymous folks who are hopping out of the woodworks to say, "Stop harshing my fan-squee, you're being <b>over sensitive about genocide</b>!"<br /><br />...<br /><br />Some people just love to be special, I guess.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-39675438338187413092010-04-18T23:55:16.775-05:002010-04-18T23:55:16.775-05:00Wow. These responses. Wow. "Calm down"? ...Wow. These responses. Wow. "Calm down"? The fuck? The woman couldn't sound calmer (not me though).<br /><br />Wow, I wonder how many of these people came here before Gaiman's name was mentioned. Seriously, Gaiman fans, seriously.Noirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07250197566463261457noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-64845914380608397532010-04-18T23:45:02.800-05:002010-04-18T23:45:02.800-05:00I have read American Gods, and the Graveyard Book....I have read American Gods, and the Graveyard Book. I take Gaiman at his word about his offhand comments. <br />This is a tempest in a teacup. If one chooses to find insult where none was intended, even after clarification, then by all means be offended. It's your god given right!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04867770858779899539noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-12671029728322260972010-04-18T23:45:02.799-05:002010-04-18T23:45:02.799-05:00Delux, you asked:
ps: when did you actually use t...Delux, you asked:<br /><br /><i>ps: when did you actually use the word "racist" or "racism" in your original post? oh wait... you didnt.</i><br /><br />I was the one who used that word, and they're basically using my words to attack Debbie.<br /><br />I'm really sorry, Debbie.Kynn Bartletthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16242332808446766603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-83124948785928046212010-04-18T23:41:48.577-05:002010-04-18T23:41:48.577-05:00Hello, Neil Gaiman fans : you aren't helping a...Hello, Neil Gaiman fans : you aren't helping anybody. And since he explained himself already, it's sort of silly to keep trying to explain for him. People can either believe he made a stupid and not-well-thought-out comment when trying to explain what he'd find in a graveyard in the US compared to a graveyard in England or not. You aren't going to change that.<br /><br />People can assume that this comment was malicious or shows Gaiman's sekrit racism (finally exposed, here and on LJ in the beginning steps of what you, too, can help turn into this year's version of RaceFail 2009) -- or they can say, "is he really so clueless"? <br /><br />You aren't going to change anybody's mind by jumping in here or anywhere else to defend what your bff Neil, whose heart you know so well because you have read all his books and subscribe to his tweets and read his blog, said.<br /><br />I love most of Gaiman's work. I also find his casual cultural appropriation problematic, but not surprising considering his age and where he was raised. I do think Dr. Reese would have done a greater service to her readers had she focused on something like that, rather than a quote that, if read with an open mind and the assumption of good will till proven otherwise, might not be anything other than reflecting a lack of thought and cultural sensitivity. There's a lot of room for that sort of critique, and this blog seems to do that rather well.Another Damned Medievalisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05231085915472400163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-50889600567163798832010-04-18T23:18:44.625-05:002010-04-18T23:18:44.625-05:00I have to say that I find the work you're doin...I have to say that I find the work you're doing fascinating. I've just, honestly, skimmed a few of your other posts and this is stuff I'm coming back to (when I'm not grading a gazillion 1st year English papers). Because, honestly, you're helping me figure out how to contextualize books that I want to read to my children, and I appreciate that more than you can possibly know.<br /><br />I'm not sure that I agree with your point about this particular quote, but in the larger context of the work that you're doing, I can see how you got where you did and why you would want to highlight it.<br /><br />I think, though, that had you read the book the quote was about, you might have seen why people who have read it wouldn't have objected to Mr. Gaiman's comment when thinking in terms of casts of characters and European-style graveyards.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-37572701115346637862010-04-18T23:09:44.577-05:002010-04-18T23:09:44.577-05:00get over *yourself*, anon. honestly. you're se...get over *yourself*, anon. honestly. you're seriously ignorant if you think there aren't loads of indians buried in cemeteries right alongside white europeans, white americans, black americans, hispanic americans, etc. etc., ad nauseum. you do know we're not extinct, right? <br /><br />why did he even need to differentiate between white people in cemeteries and indians anyhow? he could have just said, "you go back 250 years, and there aren't any more Americans buried there!", could he not have? how was that distinction relevant to his book? dead people are dead, not gendered or coloured or anything else.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-79092237673184714882010-04-18T22:55:09.063-05:002010-04-18T22:55:09.063-05:00to anon who said "When someone makes such a b...to anon who said "When someone makes such a bold generalized statement based on one little thing someone said, I immediately think they are doing it for attention because it obviously isn't from detailing a history of racist comments by said person." <br /><br />lolololol! you can only be racist or make racist comments if you do it more than once. duh, ndns.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com