tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post568114135530243079..comments2024-03-27T14:08:51.191-05:00Comments on American Indians in Children's Literature (AICL): Twitter Thread on Justina Ireland's DREAD NATIONDebbie Reesehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14972409006633565859noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-18746238829525501982023-10-04T14:13:21.507-05:002023-10-04T14:13:21.507-05:00Coming in from a adopted Asian.
I glad I stumbled...Coming in from a adopted Asian.<br /><br />I glad I stumbled upon this because Redfern (and most of the time Native was mentioned) was throwing off signals to me that I couldn't quite put my finger on.<br /><br />I would like to point out is that this book was written in 1st perspective and thus is very very limited to what a young black girl would supposedly know a the time. And there are times in the book I have to keep reminding myself that it is a limited perceptive (I'm halfway through the book now and I think I've had to remind myself this 4-5 times, this does not included every time the name Redfern is mentioned, because what is up with that name?).<br /><br />About 42-46, this seems unintended on the author in Dread Nations and probably was the easiest battle to explain away. I don't think she understood how important this was to the Native People, and I not just the Lakota and Cheyenne (even if it was limited to it being important to just them, it still wouldn't have been right if she had done enough research). And for that I am sorry.<br /><br />I will say that if I was mostly relying on government references... there would be no problem with the way Natives are shown (excepting the Custer bit).<br /><br />I wish she had been as lucky as I. My first book I managed to get my hands that addressed this (after I had devoured all the WWII books in the school library) was not government written, and while not written by a Native person, very much took the perspective that the boarding schools in the USA was cultural genocide (and it was). That book, while it used government references had about 5 pages worth citations by the end along with additional reading (as you can imagine, additional reading I ended up doing and also included things like the Jewish Holocaust, Japanese Internment Camps, Asian/Black workers in the West).<br /><br />It's unfortunate she didn't do enough (or closer) reading, or at least talked to someone who was Native about it before it got published.<br /><br />I do like Jane, and I will probably end up reading the rest of it because it's a good story of fantasy(?) alternative history from a Black and queer perspective. I hope it gets better in the next book, but I do understand your problems with this. If this ever gets adapted or revised, I hope that it will strive to do better (if not right).<br /><br />Thanks for the insight.<br /><br />Now that I've found this website, I can find book recommendations. I bet you got a few that I'll check out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-89662226336610463462019-04-01T18:45:22.767-05:002019-04-01T18:45:22.767-05:00That book is The Thirteenth Child, by Patricia Wre...That book is <i>The Thirteenth Child</i>, by Patricia Wrede. See <a href="https://americanindiansinchildrensliterature.blogspot.com/2009/06/patrcia-wrede-on-thirteenth-child.html" rel="nofollow">this post</a>. Personally, I think that book would have been a <b>lot</b> better if she'd had each Amerindian tribe hide itself from the invading Europeans by use of pocket dimensions (maybe one per tribe or language group) and occasionally pop back in to check on certain things. That way, she could have had each Amerindian village feel like that deserted town in the Twilight Zone episode "Where is Everybody?" to the European invaders, especially when any high-tech stuff that they leave lying around starts (apparently) vanishing into thin air, even from within a locked room.Sam Jonsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06037969317578064759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-23274277015344578452018-12-27T17:41:59.334-06:002018-12-27T17:41:59.334-06:00I was warned to look out for the issues, so while ...I was warned to look out for the issues, so while I'm not up to speed on Native history, I saw the red flags, and the author's note made it worse. I'm extremely sorry that this happened, especially from an author who is very vocal about race issues in other authors' works.Debhttp://www.thewritemage.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-79459069356412260252018-08-09T23:04:03.884-05:002018-08-09T23:04:03.884-05:00Might I ask which book you’re referring to that wi...Might I ask which book you’re referring to that wiped out Natives? I’d like to avoid that one. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-53554866936351195682018-07-10T09:28:10.437-05:002018-07-10T09:28:10.437-05:00In the audio book version, which is the version th...In the audio book version, which is the version that I listened to, the "well-meaning" line is clearly sarcasm. Again, that only works for audio book listeners, and is only one tiny issue in a greater story full of problems.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-26864418852827575702018-06-13T16:55:00.704-05:002018-06-13T16:55:00.704-05:00That name, Redfern...Ireland also might have been ...That name, Redfern...Ireland also might have been thinking about Lakota chief Tȟašúŋke Kȟokípȟapi, whose name actually meant "They Fear His Horse" but was wrongly translated by invading Usonians as "Young Man Afraid of His Horses" or "His Horses are Afraid". Maybe she should have chosen something like Goodpasture or Applegate. Sure hope she eventually rewrites the book (perhaps with your help or something), because, as you know, she has critiqued other racist or similarly terrible books like <i>The Continent</i>.Sam Jonsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06037969317578064759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-48610170842031642432018-05-03T11:41:33.907-05:002018-05-03T11:41:33.907-05:00Interesting discussion about this book. Just a not...Interesting discussion about this book. Just a note on the name "Redfern". It IS a fairly common English name, though it sounds like a translated Native American name. I have a feeling that's what Ireland was going for, just to create that tension of a name that could be either way. But even so, it falls a bit flat, as you say, because it's unclear.The Busy Authorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06436661456524769835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-21721981080537168682018-05-02T15:21:03.095-05:002018-05-02T15:21:03.095-05:00I laughed out loud at the line about Custer being ...I laughed out loud at the line about Custer being attacked by his own men. "Custer's Luck ran out!" I said. (Custer's luck was said to have gotten him through the Civil War -- though it sure didn't protect the men that fought under him.) <br /><br />I kind of wished that he'd been taken down by Native zombies, just as a dig at him for all the calamaties he unleashed in the West. But I wasn't sure if the timeline was right for it.<br /><br />My take isn't very informed, as I'm a Missouri cracker in Trumpville (help me!!). I just read a lot of Civil War stuff once upon a time.Melinda R. Cordellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02924404257237523106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-36479775498216809382018-05-01T23:08:17.492-05:002018-05-01T23:08:17.492-05:00Thank you, Debbie and Ava Jarvis. Dissent was a po...Thank you, Debbie and Ava Jarvis. Dissent was a poor choice of words.I appreciate your consideration and patience. <br /><br />I should have added that my interpretation is by no means the only way to read the passage or the correct way to do so. My intent was to share the context that led me toward a different conclusion. I wholeheartedly agree. Italics or quotes would have made the author's intent clear.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-90950242974554659882018-05-01T17:05:23.381-05:002018-05-01T17:05:23.381-05:00Thanks, Debra and Tanita, for your read of "w...Thanks, Debra and Tanita, for your read of "well meaning" in the author's note. It isn't in quotes there, or in italics. I think one or the other would have made it clear it is sarcasm. Debbie Reesehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14972409006633565859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-53254840939923941562018-05-01T16:54:56.222-05:002018-05-01T16:54:56.222-05:00I second debraj11's comment - I, too, read tha...I second debraj11's comment - I, too, read that as dark humor and deep, deep sarcasm, but I also acknowledge that my place is to read and listen. Thanks for this conversation, Debbie.tanita✿davishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01671822274852087499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-84405129620958239882018-05-01T15:16:56.023-05:002018-05-01T15:16:56.023-05:00debraj11, if Ireland's "well-meaning"...debraj11, if Ireland's "well-meaning" was meant in sarcasm, that makes more sense to me, given what I've read from Ireland's writings on Twitter and elsewhere. But even so it makes for some dissonance with certain items from the text.<br /><br />I'm disappointed but not, like, filled with rage.Ava Jarvishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01777180628319261015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-38570362052436126822018-05-01T14:53:54.691-05:002018-05-01T14:53:54.691-05:00This conversation is necessary and useful. The onl...This conversation is necessary and useful. The only dissent I will make is this: I read Ireland's - boarding schools were well-intentioned - as sarcasm. Deep sarcasm. As an African American woman, I am aware that the majority culture has made a great many policies for IBPOC, and many were heralded as "well-intentioned." None of them, however, were designed to benefit those groups. Given that knowledge, the passage read as a bit of dark humor.<br /><br />I'm learning as I read and listen.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-27760240.post-59939338077544579112018-05-01T11:35:31.526-05:002018-05-01T11:35:31.526-05:00I admit (as a Vietnamese person, which I say only ...I admit (as a Vietnamese person, which I say only because I know people are going to ask and I might as well get it out of the way) that I was worried about the Native content that might be in Dread Nation. I know too well that even if one is marginalized, that doesn't mean one is going to get it right. But I'm surprised that Ireland didn't do more research into what the US government did to Native folks, because that blood is interwoven throughout the tapestry of this current nation. You cannot separate what happened to Native peoples from US history, just as you cannot separate what happened to Black people from US history. <br /><br />I understand the desire to try to push to a more-or-less "safe" place the Native peoples in alternate histories of the US, but the way this was done was... well, it's better than, say, a previous book by a white author that entirely wiped out the Native population by saying they were never here, thus colonizers from their alternate Europe were able to do as they pleased without blood on their hands.<br /><br />But what happened here will still hurt many Native readers. And from Twitter, I know that Ireland wouldn't have wanted to do that, wouldn't have wanted to hurt Native readers. I feel that anyone who insists that Native folks should mind their own business with regards to the content here---well. That's a pretty rotten excuse, because it's one a lot of racist white authors use for their own works, so it'd be nice if readers could stay out of that miserable quagmire for everyone's sakes.<br /><br />And really. The idea that the boarding schools were well-intentioned and that the US government was at peace with the Native nations? I imagine Ireland would have something to say to the people who insist slavery was a well-intentioned institution during a time the US government was technically not at war with African nations. Even if these words were said in a context about an alternate history that cleaned the blood from US hands.<br /><br />Heck, as the child of Vietnamese refugees, I would have many nasty words to say to anybody who wrote a history where the American-Vietnam War was really enacted to save Vietnamese from zombies or something. Because that's not what that war was actually about, and to use it in that way propagates a myth that hurts marginalized people.<br /><br />As for "community", this is really unfortunate language that pops up a lot. For instance, speaking as a Vietnamese person again, I have many issues with the idea of an "Asian community" that many others (including other marginalized people) propagate. Because South Asian, Southeast Asian, and East Asian peoples face very different struggles in America, which are erased when we get put under one umbrella. It's nasty and ugly, because I get to face being called a Rich Privileged Asian due to a TV show when my family (and now myself) lived and continue to live in poverty.<br /><br />And things get complicated when we add the division that being diaspora adds. Many Vietnamese folks who still live in Vietnam, or who still have ties to Vietnam, would not consider me to be part of their community. And to be honest, the feeling goes both ways. <br /><br />And that is all yet again very different from Native struggles.<br /><br />I've learned that when we try to put other marginalized people into structures similar to our own, we erase their struggles. And that's pretty nasty. <br /><br />Anyways this is all pretty complicated and this comment is long and I am sick, so I will stop here.Ava Jarvishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01777180628319261015noreply@blogger.com